[HissyFit]

Trudy Sowar wants to get rid of middle school athletics. It was brought up in a teacher leadership meeting last week. Not for money. That wasn't her excuse. It was that the high school coaches (she wouldn't name names) prefer rec programs. Although, the high school football coach I know prefers middle school sports so I really don't know who is exactly behind this push. She is wanting to move away from middle school athletics within a couple of years.

[thatboyaintright]

Trudy Sowar wants to get rid of middle school athletics.  It was brought up in a teacher leadership meeting last week.  Not for money.  That wasn't her excuse.  It was that the high school coaches (she wouldn't name names) prefer rec programs.  Although, the high school football coach I know prefers middle school sports so I really don't know who is exactly behind this push. She is wanting to move away from middle school athletics within a couple of years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh goodie! I just love a good fight. And this is gonna be one heck of a ol' time brawl!

And this brings up a good discussion point about the "quality" of coaches too; rec or ms coaches doing a better job?

I ain't selling any candy bars either.

[Cuteyellowbug]

As far as Rec coaches go... the 135lb New Hope Coaches are great. My sons have really learned a lot about football from these guys!

Tammy

[Almighty Munchkin]

About 2 years you say....hummmm....well that would work for me. But not for our future athletes. I really would hate for them to remove the middle school sports.

[HiramGirl]

Oh great! Here we go!

This is just a logistics question but wouldn't the rec programs (football, basketball, soccer, cheerleading and softball) need to be set up before getting rid of middle school athletics?

[HissyFit]

TBAR: my middle school coaches have been in the championship game for the past three years in basketball, won the football championship and a softball championship. They are all "quality" coaches and do a wonder job of preparing this kids. I really think it is a shame that our superintendent wants to do this. I would like to see parental and booster club reaction to this because I think the majority of parents would disagree with Mrs. Sowar.

Oh goodie! I just love a good fight. And this is gonna be one heck of a ol' time brawl!

And this brings up a good discussion point about the "quality" of coaches too; rec or ms coaches doing a better job?

I ain't selling any candy bars either. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[soccermom]

Bad move on Trudy's part. I really don't know that much about her, but from the postings here she's a very polarizing person. People seem to love her or hate her.

Would the removal of MS sports be her call ? Or would that be the place of the BOE to make that decision. I would hope that would be a Board decision.

Does it really matter what the HS coaches want ? My arguments for keeping MS sports ie, motivation for keeping grades up, good behavior,learning teamwork, connecting and feeling a part of the school will still be valid even if the "HS coaches" don't like the program.
How about the "HS coaches" work with the MS to improve their program.

I know a lot of people feel like the MS school sports thing is blown out of proportion. Maybe it is. I just know my daughter loved it.

Try to remember Junior High (or MS depending on how old you are). I know there were several (10-15) guys in 8th grade who's behavior was held in check because the really wanted to play football. Did that turn them into model citizens...Nope.
But it did keep them under control at school so others weren't afraid and could learn.
Seems we are still having the same problems, taking away MS sports might just make them worse.

***And TBAR you don't have to sell the candy bars.....Just buy them (from me)***

[HissyFit]

soccermom: I agree with you. I have been teaching in Paulding County for five years. I have NEVER seen Trudy at a middle school game of any sport. I truly don't know exactly what her motivation is because I do think the kids respond to sports.

[Fastpitchslave]

Trudy Sowar wants to get rid of middle school athletics.  It was brought up in a teacher leadership meeting last week.  Not for money.  That wasn't her excuse.  It was that the high school coaches (she wouldn't name names) prefer rec programs.  Although, the high school football coach I know prefers middle school sports so I really don't know who is exactly behind this push. She is wanting to move away from middle school athletics within a couple of years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For Trudy Sowar to make a broad statement that the high school coaches prefer rec. is crazy. Rec, coaches are volunteers that have practices 1 - 2 times a week. Not enough time for a young athlete to learn fundamentals.

I won't comment on who are better coaches. I am sure you have your good and bad coaches in both.

[momof3boys]

It would be terrible for them to take sports out of Middle school, man they are just taking everything away from these kids that is fun. Something about school has to be fun for them or they will wind up hating it. My son starts 7th grade next year and would be heartbroken if he couldn't be on his schools football team, or any sport for that matter. Rec sports are wonderful, but kids like to represent their school. It would just be a shame. Is their something that the parents could vote on or is it out of our hands?

[bray571]

Removing middle school sports would be a bad thing. I teach at a Cobb Co. middle school and I wish we had sports. Most of our discipline problems with our male students come from the athletes. If we had sports they would behave better, because their coach could find out a lot quicker about their misbehavior and would have the power to suspend a player without the parent having to sign off on it. In a lot of rec leagues they have rules that state that the parent has to sign a document keeping their child out of the game for discipline reasons. Grades also become an issue. If the child has sports then they will have an incentive to make good grades. Also alot of our students would have more school pride if we had sports. Football Rec leagues in Paulding Co. in most cases only go up to 12 years old. What about the 13 and 14 year olds? There are a lot more negatives to removing middle school sports than there are positives.

[jigglypuff]

Removing middle school sports would be a bad thing.  I teach at a Cobb Co. middle school and I wish we had sports.  Most of our discipline problems with our male students come from the athletes.  If we had sports they would behave better, because  their coach could find out a lot quicker about their misbehavior and would have the power to suspend a player without the parent having to sign off on it.  In a lot of rec leagues they have rules that state that the parent has to sign a document keeping their child out of the game for discipline reasons.  Grades also become an issue.  If the child has  sports then they will have an incentive to make good grades.  Also alot of our students would have more school pride if we had sports.  Football Rec leagues in Paulding Co.  in most cases only go up to 12 years old.  What about the 13 and 14 year olds?  There are a lot more negatives to removing middle school sports than there are positives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is my concern also. What about the 13-14 year olds who play football? In the NGYFL the age limit is 12. The boys won't even be able to play football their 8th grade year. So, what good will that do even if the High School coaches think rec is better for kids? I have a feeling Ms. Sowers will get a fight she isn't at all prepared for if she tries to do this.

[Lady Raider]

i have never heard of such non sense, Trudy wanting to axe middle school sports? and before anybody says anything, no i do not have a child in middle school sports, how ever, i have had 2 boys that played middle school sports.

and to me that would be a bad call to do that, parents if you have children in middle school you better get on the phone and find out what is behind her reasoning for this, because if you don't, this one will sneak by you, just like other school discussions have:

so start dialing those phone and talk to her and find out why? becuase if you don't then your child will be the one to suffer for this:

I hope that the midle school sports will contuine, those students need that extra incentive to keep grades up.

[thatboyaintright]

My, my, my. Ain't this going to be fun --- again.

Here's the question: why consider nixing MS sports?

Yes, there are positives to MS sports. We've listed them,

The only reason to not have MS sports is the cost to the BOE. At least that is the only reason we've come up with.

Let's keep this civil. Keep the emotions at a minimum. (Yeah, like that is possible when you're talking about sports in the South, kids, tradition, education, & money. )

[Sigh]

The only thing that would make this more divisive would be to add religion to it.

[shed]

Well let me try on the devils horns on this one.

Let me start by saying I don't have a horse in this race, so whatever is decided by the BOE will not effect me one way or the other. My boys have moved on from MS athletics, thank goodness, took part in basketball and football. From a purely athletic point of view, we are wasting our time and kidding ourselves if we think we are helping our student/athletes with our MS athletic programs.

Let me use basketball as an example, the 7th graders in basketball play a total of 8 regular season games plus an end of the season tournament which could add at the most 3 games for a total of 11 games in 7th grade. The 8th graders are not much better, they play a 12 game regular season plus tournament for a possible 15 game season. In comparison, Cobb schools hold tryouts for the 6th,7th, and 8th grade teams under the names of the HS. These teams play anywhere from 25 to 30 games a season against much tougher competition than what our kids see. The Cobb kids are better prepared for HS sports because they have more experience and have faced other athletes that pushed them to get better.

Now then, several years ago, we use to play the Douglas County schools which was good because our kids were able to go up against better athletes than what we could provide in county. That's how our kids get noticed and recognized by AAU coaches and travel team coaches.

I'm not advocating doing away all together the MS sports programs, they just need to be restructured to provide our student/athletes with better opportunities to improve and you do that by playing tougher competition.

I talk with a lot of the coaches at EP and Hiram and they would love to see something change with the MS programs, because right now, it doesn't provide them with the type of skilled players that it takes to compete at the HS level. That false sense that you get by being the best in your county, just doesn't cut it once you step outside the friendly confines of Paulding County.

Just my opinion, please hold all sticks and stones.

[thatboyaintright]

Shed: Now that is an honest, straight-up post.

I don't know about the other sports, but I do know about the soccer program. I've been on both sides of it & I can say without reservation that overall the school porgrams are less. Club teams usually have better teams because they have better coaches & can put teams together from a larger pool.

That is not to say that some school teams don't have good coaches. Didn't say that! But as a rule, school teams are just not as competitive.

One other thing. As we add more middle schools, we increase the fixed costs the BOE has toward MS sports. Thus the cost will go up. Add a school, add more fixed costs. Simple budgeting.

This is gonna be one divisive subject.

This post has been edited by thatboyaintright: 30 October 2004 - 08:20 AM

[Almighty Munchkin]

As far as playing time for basketball (games and practices) you don't get much of it in rec ball either . I have coached rec basketball (and I know Shed has also coached rec) for the past few years and last year we only had about 6 practices for 45 minutes . Now what in the world can you accomplish is 45 minutes, especially when you have 10 boys and 2 or 3 of them have NEVER even played? I believe we had 8 - 10 games last year in rec basketball and that was it . At least with MS you have A LOT more practices.

Also, if you are caught practicing with your team and it is NOT a scheduled practice by the county, then you are relived as a coach . IMHO I don't think that is right, I feel if you want to take that extra time to spend with your players, then it is a PLUS for your players .

[thatboyaintright]

Hmmm. I didn't know about all that with basketball, epMomHF.

Surely to goodness there has to be some middle ground here (pardon the pun).

What solutions can we offer to fix this before it becomes a huge mess? I fear, however, that is gonna divide the BOE, parents, & everyone.

[gertie]

Hey Lady Raider......good point....lots of kids aren't able to participate in Rec. ball because of money and from my experience if you really want quality coaching and competion you need ot be on the more competitive traveling teams and those really cost ......I don't even want to add up what it has cost us for our daughter to play on an
athena soccer team ($700 a month divided by 15 players for the coach alone) and I've heard that competitive cheerleading squads cost $3,000 a season.

and depending on the sport.....rec. ball can be a joke.......rec. basketball in this county....you get 45 minute practices and maybe 5 for the whole season....and you can't as a coach take the inititive to find your own gym time or outdoor basketball court to practice at cause that wouldn't be "fair" to the other teams who may not have access to another court.......Who doesn't have access to atleast a basketball goal in a driveway?

[sew-n-craft]

Well, I'm sure going to do some inquiring about this one. I'm new to middle school sports in Paulding County this year. My daughter has played basketball on the rec league for the past 4 years and it's been a great experience; however, she was "benched" during several of the games because her team was winning by so many points and she was the high scorer.

So, from there, my husband and I tried to find her an AAU team she could try out for. First of all, forget Paulding County...there was one starting up last year (I forget the name of the coach, but I commend him for starting a league), but not her age group...So, we found an excellent team in Cobb County that she tried out for, barely made the team, but had a great experience (although it was a grueling schedule for her and us and we drove 45 minutes one way, twice a week, for practice).

Sheddweller, you're right...Cobb kids are FAR more prepared than Paulding kids...it's a whole different ballgame in Cobb County and I saw skill levels of their "average" players almost twice as good as what I've seen in Paulding...

So, now I don't really know where I'm going with this, or what the answers are to solve the problem...but there's NO WAY ms sports should be cut, but maybe changes are necessary. Having moved here 5 years ago, I wondered why sports didn't start in 6th grade to give the kids better experience....hmmm...again, I'm definitely going to be asking a lot of questions.

[Almighty Munchkin]

My daughter has played basketball on the rec league for the past 4 years and it's been a great experience; however, she was "benched" during several of the games because her team was winning by so many points and she was the high scorer. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats another thing that I HATE about rec basketball rules, kids are "punished" for scoring too much Everyone is suppose to have equal playing time, BUT if you are winning by so many points you have to sit your top scorers Now how fair is that??!! I had to sit THREE of my players (one being my son) out the second half of one of our games last year because of this ruling, then I had to apologize to the parents and explain the rules to them on this because they couldn't understand why I had to sit their child out for so long. I just don't feel that it is right to sit a child for doing good .

[gertie]

Hmmm. I didn't know about all that with basketball, epMomHF.

Surely to goodness there has to be some middle ground here (pardon the pun).

What solutions can we offer to fix this before it becomes a huge mess? I fear, however, that is gonna divide the BOE, parents, & everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think one solution would be to allow community coaches and PAY them.
A friend of mine volunteered to be a community coach for one of the JV volleyball teams
at one of our high schools cause they were in such deperate need of volleyball coaches......the only thing is unless you are a teacher for P.C. you don't get paid to be a community coach and the team still has to have a teacher be the head coach who gets the money, even though this teacher may not even have a clue how to play volleyball.

Last year I went to a varsity girls soccer game, I won't tell you which team, but it was between 2 paulding teams and I don't know about the visiting teams coach, but the coach for Home team was such a joke. I honestly don't think he had a clue how to play soccer, much less be a coach......I heard the senior girls were basically the coach for this particular team.....but I don't want to bash this coach.......I doubt there are many qualified "teachers" for paulding that would also qualify to coach a soccer team and we all know the few experienced ones out there are going to coach the boys teams. I think the soccer booster club is going to try to hire a trainer for this team next year, but they know the money for this trainer will have to come out of their own pocket. The only money the B.O.E. is going to pay is going to go to the teacher coach.

[Almighty Munchkin]

Thats another thing that I HATE about rec basketball rules, kids are "punished" for scoring too much  Everyone is suppose to have equal playing time, BUT if you are winning by so many points you have to sit your top scorers  Now how fair is that??!! I had to sit THREE of my players (one being my son) out the second half of one of our games last year because of this ruling, then I had to apologize to the parents and explain the rules to them on this because they couldn't understand why I had to sit their child out for so long. I just don't feel that it is right to sit a child for doing good .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I forgot to add:

At least in MS ball they can EARN a position and play the WHOLE game if the coach wants them to.

[Lady Raider]

opal:

i have had the same question about the 6th grade not be able to play sports, but i have also been told it is becuase of insurance purposes, i have always had a big probelm with that, alot of people say it is because of the size of 6th grades, well my boys where always bigger then most 6th graders but still had to suffer for it beucase they where in the 6th grade.

i have never understood why 6th grades can not particapate in the sports, it sits them aside, from the other grades, and makes them feel not as good.

i know 6 th grade is hard and some say that may be the reasoning because it is such a big adjustment, but i say to that, 9 th grade is a big adjustment also, and they are not denied sports. i feel that if the 6 th grader students has the grades to play let them play.

i am with TBAR on this, i feel before this is over there will be alot of complaining about this and alot of mixed emotions.

[Almighty Munchkin]

Good Morning Lady Raider

Heres an idea....if MONEY is the issue....Have a parent meeting BEFORE ALL tryouts of any sport in MS, let the parents know "If your child makes the team, we will need X amount of money to help support the team" For those that don't have the money, do a fund raiser or maybe have some sponsors help out so the cost is lower.......dang I don't know.....just a thought. I just want them to keep MS ball .

[Lady Raider]

Good Morning to you to epMomHF:

i agree, with you, i just want the sports to stay, for the kids, they love the sports,

[thatboyaintright]

epMomHF: Now that is a good idea.

But we would have to make it expressly clear that this is MS sports. Some may play a lot. Some none at all. But if they want pay for the chance to play . . .

[Almighty Munchkin]

epMomHF: Now that is a good idea.

But we would have to make it expressly clear that this is MS sports. Some may play a lot. Some none at all. But if they want pay for the chance to play . . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly, they would still have to earn a position and that the money is not for PLAYING on the team but for HELPING cost for the team

[EPHSRAIDERFBALLMOM]

I THINK THE REASON 6TH GRADERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY IS THEY ARE STILL ABLE TO PLAY REC BALL. THERE ARE A LOT OF 7TH GRADERS WHO SKIP THE LAST YEAR OF REC FOOTBALL TO PLAY MIDDLE SCHOOL BALL. THERE IS ALSO A HUGE SIZE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MOST 6TH AND 8TH GRADERS SO THAT COULD ACCOUNT FOR THE INSURANCE ISSUE. I HAVE TWO LARGE BOYS AND I GUARANTEE THAT WHEN MY OLDEST SON WAS AN 8TH GRADER I WOULDN'T WANT HIM HITTING THE AVERAGE 6TH GRADER. THERE IS ALSO A LARGE MATURITY DIFFERENCE IN 6TH AND 8TH GRADERS.

[thatboyaintright]

OK. Me thinks we've discussed this about as far as we can go.

So what is the consensus now?

Pay-to-Play (or at least pay to have the chance to play)
Nix the MS Sports Altogether (what a fight that will be)
Cut Back on Some Sports & Keep Football/Basketball (& leave out soccer?! Crazy!)
Keep It Like It Is (add more schools, add more costs)
Add More Sports (I always wanted to see crickett, squash, & lacross anyway)

Oh, & while we're at it, why can't the HS fund a debate team? Might as well throw some fuel on the fire.

[Galt]

Not done yet, TBAR.

I say gid rid of all public high school and middle school sports. I know the benefits of sports. Been there and done alot of it. I also know that our schools are more interested in what ranking the football team has than the ranking of the SAT scores.

As a parent who had a child in PC middle school, it is also pathetic that PC middle schools only offers Spanish as a foreign language because of budget constraints. But if you want to play sports, you have multiple choices. The priority of the school system is on athletics, not academics. If our County wants to attract industry and business, as suggested by most folks in the County, then we have to have an educated workforce, not one where the motivating factor is who we're playing on Friday night.

This past week, there was a thread regarding the lack of parental involvement at PC High School in an open forum. I'm not surprised in the least, given the emphasis of football and other sports. If our county placed the same emphasis on different extracurricular activities, like debate, we would have far a more educated and employable workforce.

I applaud Trudy Sower. She and I may not agree on the reasons for eliminating athletics from middle school, but the decision is a good one. It just doesn't go far enough.

[shed]

The Paulding Rec basketball league is what it is. It's just a league for kids to come learn the basics of basketball and have fun. You have all skill levels playing and everyone plays the same amount of time. Like epMom said, you get a big lead, your leading scorer or scorers are out of the game. The league has steadily been watered down over the years, from the rules you have to play by, to the practice times allowed.

Now if your looking for a more competitive league for your kids, take them over to the Harrison league or the Kennesaw Mountain league. These are still rec league games, but from what I've seen, the coaching and teaching are so much better than what they get in PC. First off, no zone defense, everything is straight up man to man defense. Kids learn to play defense and play it right. I'll tell you, if they have any interest in playing HS ball, they had better learn the concepts of man to man defense before they get to HS or they'll be in for a rude awakening.

The cost is a good bit more than the PC rec league, but it is well worth it with the extra practice time and extra games. After the season is over and if basketball is the sport your child wants to work at, try to find a AAU or YBOA team. Chances are some of the coaches from AAU and YBOA teams will be at these other league games looking for talent for the upcoming season.

I'm sure baseball, soccer and fastpitch softball all have similar problems with rec leagues.

Parents I guess what I'm really trying to say is, if your child shows an interest in a particular sport and seems to have talent and excels in that sport. Put them in a situation where they can learn and play against competition that will help them improve to be the best they can be.

[Galt]

As proof of my point, there have been almost 500 hits on this thread while only 5 on TBAR's thread for a debate team. I know the debate team thread is new, but I have a prediction: there will be less than 5 posts and 20 hits for TBAR's debate team thread. And the 20 hits will come from the same 3 people who posted (TBAR will post three times out of the 5 total posts).

[shed]

Galt

I strongly disagree with the statement about football ranking over SAT ranking. I can only speak from the East Paulding perspective, but from administrators to teachers, academics are much more important than sporting events. As it should be, academics are first and foremost at EP.

This post has been edited by sheddweller: 30 October 2004 - 10:28 PM

[Galt]

The average SAT score at EPHS is less than a 1,000, like PCHS. Student athletes spend almost EVERY DAY practicing their sport, yet there is little if no homework. If a student gets 3 hours of homework a week, that's a difficult week. Student athletes spend 5 times more time in his/her sport than homework. It's sad.

Students also get educated in trailers, while the athletic fields are first class.

[thatboyaintright]

Galt: You're right about the debate thread. It won't get much attention. You know what I'm talking about --- you were in debate (I think you told me you were).

Shed is right about the competition levels in the challenge leagues. Rec is a hodge-podge. Once kids get into premier leagues, the competition is incredible, the coaching is 1st rate (not good --- great), & the learning curve is amazing.

It isn't for every athlete. Some just want to have fun so rec is the place. And there is not a thing wrong with that either. But for those kids who want to have a chance at scholarships (in sports other than football) the colleges want to know the teams/coaches/trainers & their credentials before even looking at the kid. I know. I had several kids go on to play soccer at college. The ones that got the scholarships played the competitve ball with the best trainers/coaches. The rest ended up playing but no money from the school.

[Almighty Munchkin]

The average SAT score at EPHS is less than a 1,000, like PCHS.  Student athletes spend almost EVERY DAY practicing their sport, yet there is little if no homework.  If a student gets 3 hours of homework a week, that's a difficult week.  Student athletes spend 5 times more time in his/her sport than homework.  It's sad.

Students also get educated in trailers, while the athletic fields are first class.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What the heck are kids doing going to school ALL day for if they just need to do all the work at home??? Are they not learning anything while they are in school, can they only learn AFTER school hours at home???

Whats sad is kids spend many hours in school 5 days a week and STILL have 2-3 hours (and then some) of homework 6 days a week.

All work and no play makes WHAT???

Thats just my .25¢ worth

[EPHSRAIDERFBALLMOM]

I agree with you ep mom. Kids do need things to do after school besides homework. I'm not saying homework isn't needed it is. I was a great student in school but had no afterschool activities. believe me I found things to do and would have been better off playing sports or being occupied with a club or something.
My 4 kids have always played sports including middle school and they are great students and great people. And school sports motivate you to try harder. They also help with school spirit which is great for school as a whole.

[EPHSRAIDERFBALLMOM]

As for the amount of time an athlete spends practicing his/her sport they must be doing there homework or they wouldn't pass, which means no play. I have been around many student athletes and I think most work very hard for their grades. And their parents are probably better informed of their childrens grades than others. I used to live in cobb and several kids my kids went to school with have either quit school or gotten into trouble. Most were not student athletes.

This post has been edited by EPHSRAIDERFBALLMOM: 30 October 2004 - 11:39 PM

[bray571]

The bottom line it that the kids will play sports whether there are middle school sports or not. If they remove middle school sports will it help the school? I can bet that if middle school sports are removed that there will be a large increase in discipline problems. With middle school sports the athletes have an incentive to stay out of trouble. Without middle school sports they don't. Once again grades also become an issue. Do you really think these kids will try as hard if they do not have to pass to play? Most of them will learn the hard way when they get into high school, so why not try to teach them early? That's what education has come to now. These kids are doing things in the 6th grade that we did not do until the 8th grade. Let's keep middle school sports. Let's give these kids more of an opportunity to succeed.